M.D.s and D.O.s in Early California


Dr. Robert Norcross, MD, interviewed by Dr. Michael Seffinger, DO

at his home

  • Dr. Seffinger:  We're at the house of Dr. Robert Norcross
  • Dr. Norcross:  Right, well, I am a native Californian, and grew up in the Hollywood area. Went to UCLA and SC for my pre-med and graduated from USC with a bachelor's in Zoology in 1947.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Did you know Professor Flynn?
  • Dr. Norcross:  I don't remember his name.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  In 1947 he was a Zoologist; he was teaching at COPS but he wasn't there when you got there later.
  • Dr. Norcross:  No because I started at USC and then I graduated from COP&S in 1951. And then I went to Doctors Hospital for an internship between ‘51 and ‘52 and then I took a surgical residency there at Doctor's from ‘52 through ‘55, and then I stayed on there working in the clinic and assisting my uncle Howard Norcross in surgery until 1957, and then I entered practice.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Was it customary at that time to do a 2 or 3 year residency?
  • Dr. Norcross:  No you didn't have to take a residency, but at that time, the requirements for certification were a three year residency in general surgery, which I did and then I stayed on -- you could call it an official fellowship, it wasn't an official fellowship -- but I stayed on for another three years at doctor's hospital.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Now how long were residencies available to DOs in California in surgery? I know people in the 30's and 40s had to leave the country to get a surgical degree.
  • Dr. Norcross:  I don't really know when it started, but the only specialty training that was available was in an osteopathic hospital, such as doctor's hospital. There was also a hospital in Burbank/Glendale, and then of course the unit two of the county hospital was available. That was the biggest hospital available for residencies of all kinds. Doctor's hospital only had five or six internships available, and there were two surgery residencies, and that's all. But there wasn't a great availability of residency programs in California, certainly if you took out unit two, it would've been very limited.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  You felt interested in surgical residency already, or you had other departments
  • Dr. Norcross:  Well I really think that it came because of my uncle, Howard Norcross, being a surgeon. I think that sort of stimulated my interest in surgery.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Did he take you in before you were a medical student or ...
  • Dr. Norcross:  Actually, while I was in college…pre-med…I did work for a couple of summers that I had off, just as an orderly (I ran patients from x-rays to their rooms)... I had that opportunity at Doctor's Hospital.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  In 1951 you graduated COP&S and you had a year there internship again, and then the war broke out or the Korean conflict... How did that affect you?
  • Dr. Norcross:  It could've affected it a great deal... did you mention a particular year...'52…well that's when I started the residency, and it seems like it was probably about a year after that that I had to register for the draft, I forget exactly when I registered for it, and they drafted me, but not as a physician, but just like everybody else, I was going to be a foot soldier. We then, with the aid of my parents and an influential woman who was the vice-president of Bank of America knew of a number of political figures in California, started working first in California and then on a national level to see if that could be changed, in other words if I could go in as a DO, as a physician and surgeon, but we got absolutely no place. that was completely unacceptable. I was completely happy to go ahead and serve in the Korean War, but I felt that it'd be a terrible waste of my training to go in just as a private in the army. It went right down to the wire. in fact, we got no return to our appeals, and so finally I was drafted, and I was to report to the main train station in LA and in fact I went down there and was sworn into the army as a private, and actually got on the bus that was to take us to Camp Roberts, and somebody got on the bus and they said, " is there a Norcross here," in kind of a rough tone from a sergeant, and I thought oh boy I'm in trouble already, I haven't been in the army for two hours and I'm in big trouble, and so he says "get on," and so we got off the bus and apparently, finally the appeal had reached one of the senators from California, and they got the whole thing reversed, and the one thing that was kind of amazing, is that I had been drafted into the army, and all of a sudden that just went away, and I said what about that I took the oath, and they said don't worry about it, we'll take care of it. So I went back to the residency program. That was quite an experience.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  So you never received anything in writing about what you were supposed to do. You were just removed personally from them…
  • Dr. Norcross:  Right. In writing... I didn't get a discharge, no paperwork, no nothing. They just said go on home. It was amazing, it really was.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Did you ever follow that up afterwards or did it just go that they didn't bother you and you didn't bother them?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Yeah, you know, I just figured okay I'm out of it, I'm not gonna do anything else about it. I don't know whether it had any affect later in the Korean War or not, I just don't remember if any DO's got into the medical corp or not...
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Maybe, the air force. People in the…
  • Dr. Norcross:  I don't think there were any DOs in the army or even in the navy I don't think so.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  There was a spread in the LA Times…
  • Dr. Norcross:  That was before, that was when we were making our appeals, yes a reporter came out and interviewed me at Doctor's hospital and that was during the appeal process…
  • Dr. Seffinger:  At that time you weren't working in LA county hospital. In 1962 they built a whole new unit 2 and called it the LA County Osteopathic Hospital.
  • Dr. Norcross:  But unit 2 was called LA County Osteopathic Hospital.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  I read somewhere that they stopped unit 2. That in 1962 but later on I found it they still called it that even though they didn't have the sign up all the way through. Officially it wasn't called unit 2 anymore.
  • Dr. Norcross:  Yes.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  I find it nowadays you can't find a hospital with the name osteopathic on it. But anyway you didn't really train much at LA county hospital, where did you do most of your training?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Those days at COP&S the fourth year was spent exclusively at the LA County Osteopathic Hospital. In our 3rd year we had a clinic at the school and we would spend either the morning in class and clinic in the afternoon, I think they divided the class into half and half and so we had a little exposure to the county hospital in the 3rd year. But in the 4th year we were there all the time. We had 1 lecture at noon, but otherwise we were on the wards all the time.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Talk more about that, the student life, what did you think of the school, impressions.
  • Dr. Norcross:  I think all of us were just like students, anytime, anyplace. A little bit awed by the schooling itself. You're worried, you wanna learn but you wanna pass, and then just like anything else, just getting to know the students in your particular class, because you all work together, and of course we were all alphabetically, I was most acquainted with those with the initials N or M so at the anatomy table we were all in the same group and went through school together like that. I was very impressed by many of the instructors and professors. Grace Bell was of course the dean at that time and she also taught chemistry, biochemistry, very impressive, great professor. Galbrathe is another name to come to mind. I think assistant dean at one time, also quite an interesting character but a good teacher, good professor. We had I think one of the finest anatomists, anatomy professors at that time. He was an artist and would depict on the black board in many colors the anatomy lessons and you just couldn't forget because of this vivid image on the blackboard and his style. He had a dry humor so not only was he an excellent anatomist but he really put things into your mind that you couldn't forget. They just imprinted.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Do you have his name?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Stewart was his last name. I believe certainly in the history of COP&S and as you've said, you have access to some of the old papers you certainly can find him but. He was terrific. The pathologist was also the same type of a person. Knew the subject well but had a way of presenting things with a rather dramatic theatrical type of voice that put these things into your mind so that you could recall them later. Those are some of the professors that really impressed me.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  You thought you were getting a good education.
  • Dr. Norcross:   Absolutely.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  USC, UCLA, you thought that the level of education with these professors was…
  • Dr. Norcross:  Well yes, you know there was a spectrum. I mentioned some of the better ones that I remember and of course we had our share of you know, you could hardly stay awake. But you found that at USC and UCLA too. I would think that the better professors at COP&S could hold their own or surpass any that I saw at UCLA or USC.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  You paid tuition at that time? Do you remember?
  • Dr. Norcross:  I honestly don't remember. My dad, bless his heart, basically put me through school. I was just tremendously indebted to him for that. Personally no, it wasn't a sacrifice.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Were people taking out loans at that time?
  • Dr. Norcross:  It certainly wasn't prominent. I do remember some but it wasn't the program like it is today. You basically had to go to a bank and maybe on your parents status if you could borrow some money. It wasn't organized like it is today, it wasn't a big program. A lot of students had to moonlight and work their way through school. I worked at night and went to school in the day, it make it kind of tough.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Did you have a family back then?
  • Dr. Norcross:   No, I was single.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Going to school, did you engage in any programs, fraternities, extra-curricular activities?
  • Dr. Norcross:   I did join one of the osteopathic medical fraternities, trying to think of the name, I think the nick name was phi sig but I can't remember.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  There is a Sigma Sigma Phi that national…
  • Dr. Norcross:  No, I can't remember, I probably have a record someplace but I do have to look. I remember a little anecdote, do you remember Sam Shephard? Well, he was a neurosurgical resident at the county hospital when I was a 4th year student, the reason I remember that is because of the fraternity, he was in the same fraternity that I joined. He joined it as a student. He was a neurosurgery resident at the LA county hospital when I was in the 4th year of medical school. So he and his wife Marilyn who was murdered, they would invite students who were in the fraternity to their house for dinner on occasions and I always thought very highly of Sam.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Did you follow Sam's situation?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Well when he got back into the news, when Marilyn was killed, yes, but I sort of lost touch with that until then.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Did you follow through the 60's?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Yes in the papers, sure.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  What do you know about the history, osteopathic schools. I asked Ethan Allen to comment on the Steinberg was his name, Durant was it? He said that during the DO spiritual well, there were major incidences. DOs did get a fair shake. It sounded like…
  • Dr. Norcross:   He was actually in jail for a while and he tried to practice and do something for his fellow inmates as a physician and I understand they kept him from doing that but he tried. But I don't know how much effect it had on the reputation of osteopathic profession in California, maybe it did some, one thing it did was bring us a little more to notice because he was a DO and a lot of people then throughout the nation were saying, “well what's a DO and if he's a neurosurgeon how can he be an osteopath”, that type of thing. So if anything it tended to give people in California and throughout the country a little bit more of what is an osteopath? And really are they physicians and surgeons? Can they do surgery and that type of thing.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  1956 the country is awakened to osteopathy…
  • Dr. Norcross:   That's not entirely true even though that the county of LA recognized the DOs as complete physicians and surgeons and deserving of a hospital of their own, that wasn't the case all over southern CA by a long shot, even in 1956 it was very difficult if not impossible for a DO to get into most of the MD run hospitals. For example in our area here, Torrance Memorial, as far as I know, did not accept any DOs. I think most of us didn't even try to get onto the staff here because we felt we would not be accepted and that's of course why there was the development of the osteopathic hospital, Long Beach osteopathic hospital, and then Harbor Osteopathic Hospital because you couldn't get into these major standard hospitals which were run by MDs. Even a Little Company of Mary here in Torrance as far as I know did not accept DOs for a number of years and certainly in the late 50's and early 60's they certainly did not. When I came out of my residency and fellowship and started practicing I knew a number of people who either were in my class or had been acquainted with in school, they went into family practice or internal medicine in the Gardena area, in the Hawthorne area, some of the beach cities and that's why I decided to come to this area in southern California because I had a number of acquaintances who would refer surgery to me. At that time we could only practice in certain hospitals.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  At that time you could have worked at Doctors but…
  • Dr. Norcross:  When I was finishing, I had been talking to many of my classmates all along who had been interested in getting their family practice started in various communities, there were several of them in the Gardena area, Hawthorne, Longdale area, and some in the beach area and at that time Gardena Memorial was a hospital that was open to all physicians including DOs and MDs and that's where my classmates were hospitalizing their patients and so a couple of them said well why don't you come down here with us. I was in LA at Doctor's Hospital, why don't you come down here, we'll send you patients for surgery. So that's what I did and my first office was in Redondo Beach with another physician Robert Goyet who had taken a residency in anesthesiology. He and I both started a combined anesthesiology practice and family practice for him and a surgery family practice for me because we didn't think we could make it just in our specialty, very soon bob got very practice in Gardena and left the practice entirely it took me another couple of years before I got enough just straight surgery referrals to stop any type of family practice.
  • Dr. Norcross:  We were just talking about the availability of hospitals and that's why having osteopathic hospitals was a necessity. it must have been around 1960-1, some of the osteopathic physicians who were practicing in the beach cities especially Manhattan Beach wanted to go to South Bay Hospital which was called the District Hospital developed by use of Hilbergen funds because it was promoted and helped along by the government we figured well that would be an in to getting into a hospital such as that. I do remember some physicians, Paul Yates and Don Dony. Particularly Paul was quite influential in getting us into South Bay Hospital. We actually had to take them into court to get DO accepted into South Bay. I remember going to depositions in regards to osteopathic training in southern California, so that we could convince the courts that yes we were fully qualified, very well trained physicians and surgeons. We had good trainings in residencies. There were no reasons to keep us out of South Bay Hospital. We prevailed in that suit. I don't remember the exact year but around 1961 we were accepted. But it was a strained relationship. I can remember going to South Bay Hospital doing surgery for the first time there. We weren't welcomed with open arms because we had to force our way in there. Later, because it's human nature, I got acquainted with some of the other surgeons there. We found out we had typical problems and common interests and found out we were pretty well trained and we were okay. It gradually got better. It was pretty testy but as far as getting referrals from any of the MDs that were there in internal medicine or family practice, That just didn't happen. It was still the same referral from DOs.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Okay, so you had Bay Harbor Hospital, which was only osteopathic, that was set up to facilitate the DOs and family practice docs that were local to have places they can admit their patients and do surgery. Tell us about the founding of that hospital and how that developed over the past several decades.
  • Dr. Norcross:  Yes, well there was a group of DOs in the San Pedro area who had been taking their patients to Long Beach Osteopathic Hospital, and so the thought was, “Well this is fine. It's a wonderful hospital, but it's a ways to travel.” We had to in some cases even talk our patients into going to Long Beach, they wanted to stay in San Pedro. We couldn't get into the only hospital in San Pedro. I guess at that time it was just called San Pedro Hospital – later became San Pedro Peninsula Hospital, and then part of the Little Company system. But at that time, DOs were not welcome there. So George Wall was one of the physicians that was instrumental in saying, “Well why don't we get an osteopathic hospital in the South Bay area?” And then the name Bay Harbor comes from it. San Pedro is the bay, and harbor is the San Pedro part of it. So it was to try to bring physicians, DOs from the South Bay and the San Pedro area and to give them a hospital to work in. And so they also applied for and got helper funds, and in that situation, one third of the cost of the hospital was furnished by loans that were guaranteed by the government, one third came from donations from physicians, and one third came from the community, and most of it was the patients of the DOs. This went on in the late 1950's and finally in the 60's we did open Bay Harbor osteopathic hospital and that was a marvelous thing for all of us. It really sprang from the fact that we were not welcome in the MD hospitals. S; After the merger in ‘62, was there a change in your relationship to other MDs in the community? As well as the patients and how they looked at the hospital? Did you notice any difference at all in your practice from ‘62 on?
  • Dr. Norcross:  It was a gradual change. With the amalgamation and MDs then did apply to Bay Harbor hospital. At some point it lost the title osteopathic and it became Bay Harbor hospital. We were then able to apply to Torrance memorial and to Little Company of Mary and San Pedro hospital, but this occurred over a number of years. So Bay Harbor stayed probably for its first ten years almost exclusively osteopathic, and then gradually a few MDs came into the picture. My referral pattern continued to be basically the same, basically from former DOs at the time who had accepted the MD degree… it was a learning experience for all of us, I think including the MDs that started to practice at Bay Harbor and also for those of us that then got on the staff at Torrance and San Pedro, it was a time of some turbulence, DO's or former DOs still were not accepted even with the MD degree, but over the years as we got to know each other, we all realized that, yes indeed, we are all physicians and surgeons and yeah, training does vary but so does it vary among allopathic schools across the country… and there's always some snobbery – you know, okay I'm a Harvard graduate, a Stanford graduate, a USC graduate or whatever, but overall it generally improved as time went on.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  What happened to Bay Harbor Hospital?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Bay Harbor was caught in the managed care problem, medical care revolution in California. Bay Harbor got an HMO contract or FHP (Family Healthy Plan), it originally was tried at San Pedro hospital but it didn't work. So Bay Harbor took that over and did very well with it. As time went on… well, I'll put it this way. Originally, Torrance Memorial and Little Company of Mary fought off managed care and HMOs. But over time, they realized that they had to incorporate that – managed care organizations. So when Bay Harbor sort of had an exclusive on it for about ten years in this area, they really did extremely well.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  This was in what decade?
  • Dr. Norcross:  That would be in the eighties.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  That was when the HMOs started to pick up was in the 80s.
  • Dr. Norcross:  So it flourished, but when the other hospitals then sort of got into the act, patients had a choice of whether they could go to Bay Harbor, Torrance, or Little Company. Because of the name Torrance and Little Company, many patients wanted to go to those institutions. So it didn't leave Bay Harbor high and dry, but it certainly cut into the bottom line. So we were looking for an affiliation with another hospital, affiliation, talks going on with Torrance, but that didn't come to pass. There were originally talks with Little Company of Mary but that didn't come to pass. Little Company then bought San Pedro then a couple years after that, once again at Bay Harbor we tried to affiliate because we realized that without an affiliation and access to all kinds of contracts, ultimately we couldn't afford to stay in business. Then Little Company in 1996 Bay Harbor finally affiliated with Little Company. But the problems continued basically with managed care. Patients really just wanted to go to the big name hospitals. So Bay Harbor unfortunately had increasing financial difficulties and finally was closed. It now is still there. It is part of a trust for the community of Harbor City, Lomita, Carson, Wilmington. So eventually when that property is sold, that will be put into a trust for the medical needs of that community.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  When did it close?
  • Dr. Norcross:  It closed in January of 2000.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Was that hard for you to witness?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Oh yeah, it's still difficult. Because it was our baby but that's the way the climate is…
  • Dr. Seffinger:  How big was that hospital?
  • Dr. Norcross:  150 beds… we started out w just 50-60 beds, but we kept adding… its top bed total was 150.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  And there's no way to resurrecting it at this point…
  • Dr. Norcross:  No not really… we tried everything… we tried even to affiliate with Harbor UCLA, but they were not interested.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  What about with Pacific Hospital Long Beach?
  • Dr. Norcross:  No, we really didn't try with that because I don't think that that would've kept both hospitals going. I don't think that Pacific Hospital had the financial stamina to take on another hospital.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  It might now…
  • Dr. Norcross:  Yeah.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  The owner of the hospital now is looking to take over a community hospital, they're looking into other hospitals to expand. So they're looking at new ownership now.
  • Dr. Norcross:  It may have been that the administration of Little Company did talk with Pacific hospital – I don't know for sure.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  And there's no training hospital in this region for DO or med students of any type. Little Company and Torrance don't take students; they don't take residents either to train. So what if it was a training hospital affiliated with a university, like with Pomona or Western University?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Well Harbor UCLA…
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Well Harbor UCLA is the only training hospital in the region. Would that be possible to make it a training hospital? Would that help?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Well as far as I know, becoming a training hospital is not a money-making proposition. I think it's a cash flow out! As far as I know
  • Dr. Norcross:  Yeah, you were asking about the changing of degree and what affect that had on me? For me personally, it didn't have a tremendous effect except that I did then have access to other hospitals to practice, where I didn't before but basically the doctors I worked with that referred patients to me were basically the same, even after the amalgamation.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  You also changed professions. You had been related to the AOA, and the California Osteopathic Association, and you had to pay dues, and your specialty certification came from them, and you had to do CME hours, I would imagine, to maintain your specialty?
  • Dr. Norcross:  That all happened almost at the same time. I became certified in 1961 and the change came in 1962. In fact, I had just received a few months before the change, my action certificate from the American Osteopathic Board of Surgery. I must say that a short time thereafter, I was asked to return that certificate, which I did not do. But I can understand how they felt – they sort of felt betrayed. But those in my class and in that era, we were just going on trying to practice medicine. I had no idea whether this amalgamation thing that we'd been hearing about (I wasn't involved in it) was going to go through. I wanted to get my certification and continue to practice as a DO, but it did happen, I soon found out in talking with my colleagues and my referring physicians that probably 95% of them were accepting the MD degrees. So it was a no-brainer as you might say, and no matter what my feelings might have been. I frankly was a bit concerned because I had my referral pattern among fellow DOs. When they became MDS, then the pool of surgical specialists that would be available to them would be much more broad. So I was concerned about how am I going to do. There was no concern whatsoever. Everything continued just exactly the same. My referral pattern was virtually unchanged.
  • Student:  Did they have trouble getting their patients seen by MD surgeons, even after they became MD general practitioners?
  • Dr. Norcross:  I don't think so, not at all. I think those surgeons were very happy to get those referrals.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  But people stayed loyal to you nevertheless.
  • Dr. Norcross:  Basically. There was some attrition but not much
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Did you have to send your DO degree?
  • Dr. Norcross:  No
  • Student:  Did you have a choice of keeping DO/MD after your name, or did you have to give up the DO degree?
  • Dr. Norcross:  You had to give up the DO degree. You had your choice of staying a DO or accepting the MD degree, but you couldn't have both or practice or indicate in any way that you were a former DO.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  So what happens to your professional dues that you pay to the AOA, specialty societies, and your CME?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Immediately we got forms to fill out to become members of the county association and the California medical association and the AMA.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  So you just transferred your dues to another body.
  • Dr. Norcross:  That's right.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  When you went to CME program, did the American Board of Specialty – the MD board, did they then keep track of your CME?
  • Dr. Norcross:  It varied as far as surgery is concerned. Those of us that were certified by the American Osteopathic Board of Surgery were not considered eligible to take the examination for the American Board of Surgery. The only way we could've done that is to go back and take another residency in surgery.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  So what happened to that board certification then? Were you board certified after you became a MD?
  • Dr. Norcross:  As I said, my board certification was in July of 1961 and the amalgamation came in 1962 and as I said, my actual document arrived, and as soon as I accepted the MD degree, they wrote a letter and said we would like to have that document back, but I said no I won't send it back.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  But did they take you off their rolls?
  • Dr. Norcross:  I'm pretty sure they did?
  • Dr. Seffinger:  So let's say in 1963 and a patient asks if you're a board certified doctor and you say yes, but then go and check with the board but they say no…
  • Dr. Norcross:  That was a problem when applying to Torrance Memorial and Little Company of Mary. At first, because they couldn't get documentation from the AOA other then saying yes he did get the certification at that time, they did not consider us to be certified. Basically they took it back. But the hospitals finally accepted it.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  They realized the catch-22 situation.
  • Dr. Norcross:  Because of the fact that we couldn't sit for the examination. If they would've let us sit for the American Board of Surgery, I think a lot of osteopathic surgeons would've done that, but they wouldn't allow that.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  And that hadn't changed over the next forty years. So the specialists at the time, they were left hanging dry without a specialty college.
  • Dr. Norcross:   Well, I wouldn't say all. Some of the specialty boards did allow former DOs to sit for the exams. I couldn't tell you which ones but some of them did. But surgery no.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  I have to look it up. Okay, did you have requirements for CME since there were no specialty board overseeing you.
  • Dr. Norcross:   Oh yeah, you have the CMA requiring us to have CME. Bay Harbor for example applied for and got accreditation for CME credits and then we could go to Torrance or Little Company or San Pedro or Long Beach or wherever we wanted to go. Certainly for a number of years we would go to Hawaii every summer because USC had a refresher course, it was a great course, we got CME credits for that.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Did you feel you had to be a member of CMA? Could you choose not to be?
  • Dr. Norcross:  No, you could choose not to be and a number of people never did.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  The 41st trust fund, the 41st society, do you know anything about that at all?
  • Dr. Norcross:  That's way back.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  You weren't part of that, there was an alumni group that set up a trust fund to study manipulation and do research in osteopathic manipulation. I don't know all the people that were involved but I'll have to look that up. So the COP&S alumni, were you involved with them at all? The people that graduated from the old school.
  • Dr. Norcross:  Yeah, there was a separate group, the 41st medical society, I did in fact pay dues to that.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  For how long did you continue with that?
  • Dr. Norcross:  I don't' remember, many many years.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  So you guys met together, what did the society do for you, why would you pay dues to a society like that?
  • Dr. Norcross:  It was tied in with UCI. We became alumni of UCI even though we weren't and I can remember going to educational conferences at various places.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  There was a lawsuit by some specialists in 1969 or so that they were frustrated that they weren't accepted into the specialist societies. Have you heard about that? Anybody that you know?
  • Dr. Norcross:   No.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Apparently the 41st society had a couple of thousand members to begin with and within a couple of years it went down to a couple of hundred, as far as paying members.
  • Dr. Norcross:   I think I stayed in it for a long time.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Let's go through the 1970's. In 1974, the California Supreme Court reverses the decision saying that the osteopaths can now start a school again, or start licensing DOs again in the state and have their own board, like in 1922, now what happened to you then? How did that affect you personally, what went through your mind?
  • Dr. Norcross:  I was really happy to see that there was going to be a school and graduates accepted as DOs. It didn't affect me very much personally except that I somehow heard about the school in Pomona starting and I don't remember who approached me possibly Ethan Allan, my class mate, but I did become involved in that school as a founding member or contributor and I was delighted that the osteopathic profession was going to start again in California.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Did you know that there was a group of alumni that wanted to start a school beside this school, there was another one that was asking the AOA for its blessings?
  • Dr. Norcross:  No.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Could you talk about your involvement in osteopathic college in Pomona that began in the 1970s and you also have some family members involved in the profession, could you talk a little bit about your involvement with the profession.
  • Dr. Norcross:  Sure, as I said I did become involved with COMP early on before it actually started. My son Jim Norcross was in the charter class which graduated in ‘82, which is coming up with their 20th anniversary this year. So he started '78 or something like that and my other son Tim is in school at Western, he will be in the class of 2004. So the family tradition continues.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  So this would be 3 generations?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Yes my uncle Howard would have been the 1st graduate. He was a graduate of COP&S. I believe in 1936 and then in graduated in '51, Jim at COMP in 1982, and with any kind of luck Tim will be in 2004.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  My goodness that's a span of almost 70 years, that's just amazing. Looking back at your life, and looking at Tim's life now and the future of osteopathic profession in California, or as a physician, what do you have to offer as far as wisdom or things that might help guide folks, things you like the students of today to know about, particularly osteopathic students today.
  • Dr. Norcross:  That's a really big question. I still think that medicine in generally is a really exciting field. There's so much reward for helping people. That's still going to go on, the economic side of it is certainly not anywhere near what it was when I started I was in the so called golden years and it was wonderful. I don't think there anything to be concerned about there. I think if you want to be a physician and you want to help people, just go for it. It's a great occupation. I can't imagine really anything that I'd rather done than what I did. I of course gravitated towards surgery, I still like that idea because you can usually see results right away. My internal medicine colleagues, it usually takes them a lot longer. I think it's exciting. We were talking about the osteopathic profession, I hope the students do see the difference between a DO and a MD. The DO gets everything that an MD gets in the way of training and they have this plus and it's something that they should never forget. Its easy to forget it because in today's medicine you have to take care in a certain amount of time and certainly to do some amount of manipulation on that patient takes part of that precious time sometimes it very very helpful in surgery I have to admit very little of my practice was in manipulation but once in a while there was a spot I could use it. I hope they don't gloss it over or forget that extra that they have in training and ability.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Let me ask you one last question. The osteopathic philosophy has been touted as what makes osteopaths unique aside from manipulation as a procedure. Specialists proclaim that their training in philosophy and principles helps them view the patient differently take good care of patients differently from an MD trained physician. Did you get a sense of different in outlook in your care of patients from MDs that were also surgeons. Did the osteopathic education really offer you any different perspective, abilities or philosophy of practice?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Only in the respect that the osteopathic profession all the way through and still now has been family practice oriented and I think as a surgeon I did realize and go into perhaps what was going on in a family. Let's so someone is facing surgery and they might seem overly concerned overly afraid sometimes going into what's going on in their family is helpful in bringing them through a serious situation I think that because of the foundation in family practice that every DO gets no matter if they go into a specialty in the future I think that's a definite advantage. Because the strictly MD surgical training and medical school I don't' think has that basic philosophy of the person as a whole and the family unit.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  Were you taught the osteopathic principles so called principles that you had to learn and apply those outside of manipulation?
  • Dr. Norcross:  Well except what we've mentioned of treating the patient as a whole is something that has stuck with me all along. Not just in surgery for example, narrowing in on just what is wrong anatomically with the patient but the patient as a whole. I'm not saying that they don't do that in medical school. They do obviously but I think there is more of a focus in osteopathic medical schools.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  That's basically how we approach the book as well as specialties. Some of the principles of unity, whole person concept, structure and function being interdependent. Thinking all that at all times. Self healing nature of body. This is part of surgical practice anyway. Concepts of rational therapeutic scientific basis, base your concepts and reasoning on anatomy physiology. These have pretty much been adopted by all of medical practice in my view. Did you feel that modern medicine has adopted much of what osteopathic medicine has from the beginning tried to teach.
  • Dr. Norcross:  I think so. The concepts of holistic medicine that seems to be growing now and in the forefront. I've seen that used and believed by the allopathic profession.
  • Dr. Seffinger:  I've really appreciated your time. Your take on it is very valuable. Thank you very much.
  • Dr. Norcross:  You're welcome.