Pioneering Osteopathy

Dr. Paul Alloy, MD, interviewed by Dr. Michael Seffinger, DO

in Palm Springs, California
August 27, 2005

Dr. Alloy: My name is Paul Alloy, born February 14, 1924 in the city of Philadelphia. I was raised and educated there having gone through Central High School, graduating in 1941 and then attending La Salle College which today is La Salle University from 1941 through 1943, then in 1943 matriculated at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathy, graduating in 1946. Subsequent to that, I had applied to the Los Angeles County General Hospital for internship and while awaiting my acceptance I spent approximately four or five months working in a small hospital in Audubon, New Jersey. They had no house staff so they appreciated having someone to fulfill that task. I must say for the short period of time that I was there, I did learn quite a bit. The owner of the hospital and also a general surgeon was Ralph Davis. I then came out to Los Angeles in February of 1947 and began my internship at the county hospital. This was all during and immediately after the Second World War years; and during that period of time our education was compressed from the standpoint of time. We had no summer vacations. We had several weeks off and were able to accomplish four years worth of normal education within three. The same thing applied with my internship - a twelve month internship was condensed to nine months. Following the nine month internship, I was accepted as an assistant resident and worked in the emergency department. From there, I went into anesthesia and obstetrics, which required spending time on the obstetrical floor when we were on call rather than our own bedrooms. Needless to say, it was a very active service for a county hospital. After several months, I was then assigned to urology and while still a junior resident in urology, I was offered the position of Senior Resident which is limited to three different services - the outpatient department, general medicine or general surgery. I was assigned to the outpatient department and not wanting to just stay there, I was able to coerce the powers-to-be to allow me to continue my work in urology. Eventually, when I got onto the service of general surgery, I gave up urology and continued in general surgery until I left the county hospital which was some time in 1949.
Dr. Seffinger: Can you state where it was?
Dr. Alloy: This was at Parkview Hospital, which was on Hoover Street near Santa Monica Blvd in Los Angeles. Upon completing my work at Parkview Hospital, I made application to the American Osteopathic College of Surgeons both for membership and for Board Certification. I was accepted as a candidate in both circumstances. And of interest is the fact that Dr. Robbins, who was a certified surgeon, was not politically active within the osteopathic profession, but subsequent to my application, it was very interesting in the fact that he was invited to receive a fellowship at the American College of Osteopathic Surgeons, which he did receive at the same time that I got my membership into the college. I don’t remember the exact year. I did take my boards, (but) I was able to pass the boards and receive my certification from the American Board of Osteopathic Surgery. In 1957 I applied for staff privileges at the county hospital which automatically created a teaching situation. Being a teaching hospital you helped train the interns and residents. Following an interview, at that time Grace Bell was the Dean of the school and very helpful as I had known her through some of my efforts at the school while I was an intern and resident. In any event, I was accepted on the staff and provided my services both in the outpatient department and in surgery with the residents there. I was also made a clinical instructor of surgery and was asked to do some lecturing at the college which I did. I was invited several times by Richard Stuart who was head of the department of anatomy to provide lectures to students relative to the practical value of anatomy as it related to (doing) surgery. I think on the side I’m going to go back a little bit and say why I applied to the county hospital in Los Angeles for internship rather than stay in the east coast which is where I was from. Primarily it was because there were four of us who approximately two months before our graduation having a month off took a cross country trip by automobile visiting as many osteopathic hospitals as we could throughout the country. Three of the four of us were very impressed with the west coast in particularly the Los Angeles County Hospital because we as graduating seniors had spent externships in Philadelphia which by comparison to the externs in Los Angeles, was extremely limited. We couldn’t touch a patient or even talk to the patient, but here, of course this is a county hospital as compared to a private hospital and the externs were doing things that our interns back east would clamor to do, so three of the four of us applied for internships out here. Two of us were accepted at the county hospital and one was accepted at another institution in the Los Angeles area. I must say that there was not only that difference between the east and west coast so far as the kind of training we were exposed to and able to put hands on so to speak, but there was also an attitude rendered to the care of the patient which I think followed through both the east coast and west coast. It was almost as though we had to prove not only to ourselves, but to the patient that we were good physicians or would be good physicians and I think that has continued through to today. A number of my friends that went through the merger continued to practice medicine in the way they did before hand. It made no difference. The only difference was that they may have signed their name as an MD instead of a DO, but in any event that was just an aside from part of the teaching.
Dr. Seffinger: I would be interested to know about your perceptions of all the hospitals across the country, I don’t think we’ve talked to anybody that’s had that experience to actually look at the various hospitals as you go across the states and get…and in fact I’m very interested.
Dr. Alloy: I can’t remember all of them, but I do recall visiting two hospitals in the Detroit area, one large one which was Detroit Osteopathic I think, and then there was a smaller one that was owned by a single individual whose name slips my mind, but they were very receptive to our visiting because not too many hospitals get people that wanted to apply from too many other states, at least back in the 1940s. I do recall seeing a hospital in Albuquerque, New Mexico, but some how or other I can’t remember much of any of the others. We saw several in the Los Angeles area, not just L. A. County.
Dr. Seffinger: How big were these hospitals?
Dr. Alloy: You know I really can’t answer that. The one private one in Michigan was maybe about 50 beds, but Detroit Osteopathic was much larger. Of interest is - an intern that we met at the DOH was so interested in the fact that we were coming out to California that quite accidentally or I should say coincidentally enabled him to fulfill a dream so to speak when he left his internship and came out to California. He still practices in the Beverly Hills area. His brother, along with the rest of his family followed him. His brother went to COP&S. His brother’s son is also a graduate of UCI.
Dr. Seffinger: Do you know the ones out here now practicing?
Dr. Alloy: Yes, and because of various aspects of a professional relationship with one, he created a fund in my honor through the Associated Alumni at UCI that grew fairly significantly and was utilized for a visiting lectureship in the Department of Surgery; and that was started with the help of the, then Chairman of the Department of Surgery who was G. Robert Mason. However, when Dr. Mason left the university to return to Chicago there was about a four year period that there were no lecturers invited. The fund was not used. I did speak with the, then, chief of the department of surgery and for some reason or other the lectures never came up again, so I elected to use the money for a different purpose and financed the furnishing of a study room or clinical study room in the Burke Alumni Center. I elected to go to the osteopathic school in Philadelphia because I had a cousin who had graduated from PCO in 1936. He opened his practice after a residency in East Orange, New Jersey. I used to visit him and was very much taken with his abilities and his relationship with patients so that I felt I would like to follow along the same steps. I was fortunate enough to be able to do so. So far as noticing differences between the two professions in Philadelphia, I would say there was a pretty good degree of elite attitudes within both professions. Those that were in the upper hierarchy within the osteopathic profession in Philadelphia were sometimes extremely difficult to speak with or have a relationship with, though I did have a mentor of sorts in Philadelphia, a Dr. Victor Fisher who was a cardiologist. As a result of which, I became very much interested in internal medicine. However, that subsequently changed when I came to California and my services happened to be in the surgical field. My mentor here was Dr. Robbins who I mentioned earlier who in his own right was a unique and unusual individual. Historically, I don’t know if this was commonly known, he originally was a podiatrist and he was interested in doing some podiatric surgery, but was not permitted to do so without more extensive training. As a result of this he had some friends in San Francisco and went there to become a preceptor in the surgical field related to the foot. He was able to do the work, but it was limited to the foot. His interest then expanded. Therefore he went to the osteopathic college, became a DO, and continued his relationship with someone at the University of San Francisco. There he became an outstanding general surgeon performing neurosurgery, disk surgery, orthopedic work, fractured hips, obstetrics, gynecology, and thorasic surgery. He was one of the first in the DO profession, so far as I know, to do mitral commissurotomies when that became in vogue back in the 1950’s.
Dr. Seffinger: Did he train Robert Steadman as well?
Dr. Alloy: He would have been involved with Bob Steadman because he was the senior physician at the county hospital. There were two seniors who rotated six months on and off, one was George Robbins and the other was J. Willowby Howe. Bob Steadman was a resident at the county during my time of service on the attending staff. I did find him to be an extremely hard worker and very diligent in wanting to learn as much as he possibly could. I would have to say during my time there he was probably one of the most outstanding residents if not the outstanding. One of the other residents that I encountered at the county hospital was Bernard Rothman who, upon completion of his residency, joined our surgical practice, including myself and a Dr. Abe Witlin who was graduates of COP&S. In fact, when I first completed my surgical training and was subsequently certified, I was essentially an itinerant surgeon moving among a number of hospitals in the Los Angeles area. Sometime, roughly in 1957, I was contacted by a mutual friend of Abe Witlin called Stan Kaplan who spoke to me about the possibility of coming out to help Witlin in the surgical practice because they were extremely busy at a new hospital, Rio Hondo Memorial Hospital in Downey. I strongly considered that and did accept the offer and the two of us did form a partnership and subsequently expanded when we took in Bernard Rothman. I believe Bernie Rothman joined us possibly in 1961 or 1962, somewhere around that particular time. Prior to that for several years I was appointed a member of the Adjudication Committee at the COA where we did insurance reviews relative to doctor complaints or complaints from insurance company’s as regards to the physicians charges; I served on that committee for a number of years; was on another committee at COA when there was talk of a merger between the two professions, which involved review of specialty certification. I was not actively involved with the merger or what took place, but was not against it, primarily because of the advantages I thought that would open up to the many individuals that were looking for more extended training than was available to them at that particular time. Then subsequent to the merger that did take place in 1962, I was appointed to the committee on insurance review for Los Angeles Medical Association and served on that committee until 1981. I’m not positive of the date and then also with the event of the merger there was formed a 41st Medical Society which became part of the California Medical Association. We essentially were our own association for a number of years with our own subdivisions. Just as LACMA had a south division, east division, so-forth and so-on, the 41st Society was also broken up into various divisions. I did become the president and trustee of the Southeast Division of the Medical Society. Unfortunately at the time of the merger there were several of us in California that were members of the American College of Osteopathic Surgeons that had an annual meeting to which we were invited a long time prior to the merger to present a paper which would have been in 1962. However, because of the merger there was great animosity that was suddenly created both by the individuals in charge of the various committees in the Osteopathic profession and those of us in California who elected to go along with the merger and accept the MD degree from the then California College of Medicine which had been the College of Osteopathic of Physicians and Surgeons. As a result of which none of us that were previously invited to attend the meeting were permitted to do so. So it did create a bit of a riff between the friendships and relationships that we had developed over the years. We thought we were an advanced guard in creating something that might even become a national trend though that obviously did not take place. However, I am aware of the fact that what occurred in Los Angeles or California actually created a better relationship among the two professions in several other states, but I don’t have any documentation. It was requested that we return our certificates of membership in the college.
Dr. Seffinger: College of Osteopathic Surgeons?
Dr. Alloy: Yes, the College of Osteopathic Surgeons. We that had accomplished the achievement of membership and certification were against returning them. We let the people in the east coast know that if they wanted the certificates they would have to come and remove them from our office walls, which of course they never did. Because of the change over in the professions, those of us that did elect to accept the MD degree and did have certifications, the validity of which might be in question so far as insurance agencies in the State of California was concerned because we were no longer DOs so a committee on certification and certification review was established as a result of the merger and that was headed by Dr. Longmeyer who was at that time Chairman of the Department of Surgery at UCLA.
Dr. Seffinger: Was he an MD at the time?
Dr. Alloy: He was an MD. I don’t remember all that served on this committee, but I did as did Dr. Donald Pinder, a DO who also elected to go along with the merger. Dr. Pinder was a neurosurgeon and a professor having taught anatomy at COP&S for a number of years. The purpose of this committee was to review the certifications of those individuals that were going along with the merger - to approve them, in which case they received a certificate so indicating that they were now certified by the California Certification Committee or Commission. We also provided examinations and reviews for those individuals that were in limbo who were fulfilling the requirements set forth by the AOA and suddenly could not take the exams, so those exams were performed or done on behalf of this committee to provide certification for those individuals as regarded the state at that time.
Dr. Seffinger: So who would they be certifying?
Dr. Alloy: It was a committee, but the committee was involved with people in all the different specialties, so that for example, I wouldn’t approve somebody for internal medicine, but I would be involved with somebody in general surgery. Someone else would have taken care of the individual for internal medicine who was a prior certified individual. Well, prior to that - let us say that Rio Hondo Hospital was approved for internship and residency training. Their residency program was limited to just general surgery not any other specialty and roughly from 1957 until 1962 we had an active internship and residency program. There were three residents that received training at Rio Hondo. One has remained in California – (that was a doctor Herving Sirral who I believe is now retired.) Our internship training was a very good one. I’m somewhat prejudice because I was director of the program, but we had, as I recall, four or five interns each year. Subsequent to the merger, of course, we lost our approval for internship and residency training from the AOA, so it changed the status of the amount of work that was done at Rio Hondo Hospital. I think several years after that there was an externship program that was being utilized by USC and UCI for having students do rotations at Rio Hondo Hospital. And I believe once COMP came into existence they joined that same program. So far as the effect of the merger on me personally, there wasn’t anything significant; the relationships that we had prior continued post; the kind of training that we were exposed to were essentially the same; we had more CME programs to attend if we so desired than we did previously, but practice continued the same.
Dr. Seffinger: Did it open any doors for you personally or the people you knew as had been expected?
Dr. Alloy: Yes, doors were opened for several individuals I knew. A former associate of mine from the family practice days accepted a fellowship in hematology and oncology at the City of Hope and he subsequently went on to USC. I believe he headed one of their departments in oncology. He was also head of the department at Good Samaritan Hospital. Also there was one individual who went on to a residency in psychiatry and then became Chief of the Division of Pediatric Psychiatry at USC. There were several individuals who took psychiatry residencies. There was another individual who left family practice and became a radiologist and went on to become a oncologist radiologist. There was another friend, (Raymond Teplets) who was a pathologist as a DO and continued as a pathologist once the merger took place, but also had the occasion to be employed at the City of Hope where he remained for a number of years. Following his retirement there he became head of a division of pathology at UC Davis Medical School. So in any event the merger did create I think a lot of openings for individuals that might not otherwise have been able to explore them.
Dr. Seffinger: Was the GP or general practitioner’s practice maintained at all or changed at all?
Dr. Alloy: For those who remained in practice, I don’t think so. They remained just as busy, those that I kept in touch with; their practice remained essentially the same.
Dr. Seffinger: Did the MD specialists take their referrals?
Dr. Alloy: Yes, but I think they did prior to that too. There were a certain number of MD specialists that were always available for referrals so that didn’t necessarily make any major difference in their practice routine.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay. Why do you think the merger that happened in California did not happen elsewhere?
Dr. Alloy: Well, I think it took a number of years for it to take place in California, and though there may have been and obviously was a lot of behind the scenes work, I’m not sure that the individuals in other states were interested in doing that or in giving up their own positions. Sometimes it’s difficult to be president of an organization that will no longer be in existence and become just one of the flock.
Dr. Seffinger: Did you know people in California that gave up their positions for this process?
Dr. Alloy: I don’t understand...gave up?
Dr. Seffinger: …gave up their positions here in California when they became MDs? They lost their positions as DOs.
Dr. Alloy: No they didn’t. No, but I’m speaking as an association. Obviously the president of the COA was no longer president of the COA, but it didn’t bother them.
Dr. Seffinger: Oh, here, in the state…
Dr. Alloy: Yes.
Dr. Seffinger: And they just went on with their life.
Dr. Alloy: Yes, exactly.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay. They then become prominent in the CMA all of a sudden?.
Dr. Alloy: No, I don’t think so. I think it takes too many years to do that.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay.
Dr. Alloy: The other advantage to me personally, so far as the merger was concerned, was my involvement with the California College of Medicine that later joined the University of California at Irvine. I became somewhat active, not from a clinical standpoint, but from the standpoint of working with the Alumni Association and having been appointed to the Committee on Admissions to the medical school. It opened up a relationship for me with a number of individuals at UCI that I might not have encountered otherwise and to this day I maintain a very good relationship at the school and with certain individuals.
Dr. Seffinger: Well, let’s talk about that involvement then. So you became more involved. Did you help to develop that college and help with the contract development; get the alumni to support it; and were you involved with that process?
Dr. Alloy: Yes I was. I was instrumental in having a diploma from the University of California – Irvine. California College of Medicine presented to all of the graduates of the California College of Medicine and this required excellent cooperation with Dr. Forest Grunigen and with Dr. Stanley Van den Noort who was the Dean of the Medical School at that time and numerous letters were required to be sent to the Senate, I think it was the Faculty Senate of the University of California to approve that. So it took a little time and a couple of years to do so. My main purpose in wanting to accomplish this was the fact that the alumni association of the school was asking for contributions from the graduates of COP&S and from the graduates of the California College of Medicine. They were not necessarily both the same since there were a number of us who received our DO degrees from out-of-state and our relationship with UCI was nothing more than the fact that we just happened to have a degree which didn’t even state the University of California - Irvine. As a result of the efforts we mustered, we were able to gain Senate and Regents approval and provide diplomas to those individuals via 14 separate meetings through out that Dr. Van den Noort and I attended. The responses that we had in the various communities that we did visit were tremendous for those individuals that did come and accept their diploma from UCI. How effective it was so far as their relationships - the recipient’s relationships with the school, I’m really not sure, but I did receive a number of letters from individuals expressing their appreciation for my efforts on their behalf relative to the diploma.
Dr. Seffinger: So when we see people that have a certificate of graduation in 1962 from UCI California College of Medicine or College of Medicine, it usually says 1962 or 1964…?
Dr. Alloy: No, actually the original certificate would be the California College of Medicine dated 1962.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay, then that didn’t have UCI affiliation?
Dr. Alloy: No.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay so then they had another diploma that came out once you became affiliated with UCI?
Dr. Alloy: Right and that was dated the year that it was presented.
Dr. Seffinger: Which was…?
Dr. Alloy: 1982 approximately. I would have to look it up.
Dr. Seffinger: Oh, I see. So they would have been given an MD degree graduating from UCI College of Medicine 1982 for work they did back…?
Dr. Alloy: Twenty years before.
Dr. Seffinger: Previous. Okay and they could still have their certificate of their MD degree in 1962 from California College of Medicine.
Dr. Alloy: Right.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay and the people that graduated from COP&S before that had a DO degree and they kept those certificates, if they wanted to and they could update them to the 1962 one and later to the UCI – 1982?
Dr. Alloy: Correct.
Dr. Seffinger: They got three certificates of graduation, but graduating only once.
Dr. Alloy: Exactly.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay.
Dr. Alloy: Yes. My original diploma is dated 1946. My licensure in the state of California was originally in 1947 as a DO and then 1962 as an MD.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay, did you get another one in 1982 that says something…?
Dr. Alloy: No, my license was still good.
Dr. Seffinger: All right. What else did you do at UCI College of Medicine? Were you in other committees? How else were you involved?
Dr. Alloy: Yes I did function on several committees. One was a committee setup by the Dean for a liaison between the Alumni and the College of Medicine for the University. I also served as Chairman of the annual scientific sessions for the annual Alumni meeting. The meeting was part of a homecoming reunion at the University. I initiated the inclusion of individuals of the reunion classes as speakers for the scientific sessions attempting (1) to bring more of their own classmates to come to the reunion, and (2) to primarily show what the graduates of the school have accomplished.
Dr. Seffinger: And they faired pretty well?
Dr. Alloy: They did. They did very well. I did that for two or three years, I’m not sure.
Dr. Seffinger: Did you find that the Alumni from either of the three schools that you were involved with…You were basically involved with COP&S, CCM, and UCI College of Medicine. Did they all go out and mostly become GPs or specialists? Did you see a transition occur over those years?
Dr. Alloy: I think I did see a transition. I think there are many more GPs when we were DOs. The number of individuals that went into specialty, percentage wise, was far less, but I think because of the greater degree of potentials there are more people that went into the specialties.
Dr. Seffinger: More opportunities?
Dr. Alloy: Correct.
Dr. Seffinger: Residency training opportunities?
Dr. Alloy: Right.
Dr. Seffinger: All right then that will take us up into the 1970’s. When did you stop clinical practice? Did you practice up through the ‘60s and ‘70s?
Dr. Alloy: I retired in 1982.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay, so you retired in 1982. At that time were you still at Rio Hondo or no?
Dr. Alloy: Yes
Dr. Seffinger: Yes, you were still at Rio Hondo in 1982. At that time did you have DOs coming in from the COMP College to do externships and internships?
Dr. Alloy: Yes we did.
Dr. Seffinger: So you started that process as well. You were involved with that?
Dr. Alloy: I wasn’t as directly involved as I had been previously, but others had taken over.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay and how did you feel about the new wave of DOs coming in? Was that kind of strange for you to see that process occur?
Dr. Alloy: It was surprising that after 16 years since the merger that an Osteopathic college would be developed. Many that earned their DO degrees from other than COP&S maintained their alumnus status and college associations and though our State license and diploma indicated an MD degree, at our alma maters we were DOs. There were some who were adamant in their opposition. I did have the privilege and honor to serve on an ad hoc committee representing the State of California Department of Education in evaluating COMP in June, 1978 as to the facilities and program to issue degrees. I was very impressed with what they were attempting to do at that time and obviously over the past 27 years they have had tremendous accomplishments. A lot of credit is due Dr. Pumerantz who was instrumental with the development of the school and with the formation I think of Western University and the various colleges that are now associated with it. So from that standpoint I think it’s done well. Unfortunately, I have not had any relationship with any of the graduates of the school so I don’t know anything about them, but I would tend to think that their training is every bit as good as ours was.
Dr. Seffinger: Well did you also rotate…some of them rotate through UCI and some of the attendees at UCI are their attending physicians, you know, when they go through externship and internship and on into residency. For a good 20 some odd years or more, there has been this cross training which you know going over to UCI or USC have always welcomed students from COMP to train them. So the students get to see a variety of attendings; some that were always MDs; some that were DOs and became MDs; and some that are still DOs. So the students kind of wonder, you know, what the story is. That’s part of the impetus for this kind of projects\ - to try to get it all the angles and all the stories - so that the students can make sense of what has transpired here in California, so they can understand who they are and where they fit into the picture. That’s what it’s about!
Dr. Alloy: There is one aspect of the training which is lacking in the medical profession, allopathic profession as compared to the osteopathic one and that involves manipulation. I never quite appreciated all the aspects of manipulative therapy, primarily, cranial sacral therapy, which was just sort of starting when I was a student at PCO in Philadelphia and I’m still not sure what that really does, but from the standpoint from manipulations and corrections of rib lesions, I don’t mean rib lesions from the standpoint of neoplasm’s, but subluxations, you might say, that there is a very definite improvement with the use of manipulative therapy.
Dr. Seffinger: It has become popular in various professions.
Dr. Alloy: A little story though, I used to consider myself pretty good at manipulating and working the cervical column. However, when I was an intern at the county hospital and on the internal med service, there was a patient admitted from the outpatient department who had developed a stroke during the process of cervical manipulation. In retrospect it was probably a vertebral artery source. I don’t remember the age of the patient. It was not a young person I know, but I couldn’t say the age, but from that day on I have not been able to do a cervical correction. I’ll do traction, but no more then that.
Dr. Seffinger: Yes, that’s a concern. A lot of people have that concern these days too.
Dr. Alloy: Yes.
Dr. Seffinger: Did you notice a lot of complications from manipulations? Did you see that much? We don’t have many records on that, that’s why I’m trying to understand, were there complications? Were they reported? Who knows?
Dr. Alloy: No. Well I didn’t do that much of it, but I did utilize corrections for the sacroiliac region in particular because that was one area that people had the greatest amount of difficulty. And until relatively recently I used to do that on members of the family as I thought it was necessary. But no I’ve not encountered any complications and certainly appreciate a good deep massage which I think is sort of a take off on good osteopathic manipulation.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay, what advice do you have for future osteopathic and for allopathic physicians in training from your experience; you had a quite broad range of experiences in your career? Anything that you think they should learn or looking for in their career that you would like to pass on to them.
Dr. Alloy: I think number one is to have an open mind and explore, as much as it is possible, and question that which you feel you need to question. I think it would be a good idea if both professions were able to learn more of one another, primarily the allopathic learning something of the benefits of manipulative therapy, and I know it does go on. There is a paper recently published from England, I believe it was on the effect of manipulative therapy relative to just to application of heat for low back problems. And as I remember in reading it, there was a faster return to normalcy with the utilization of manipulation.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay. You mentioned some people that we should contact. Do you have any other people that you think we should contact in regards to their instrumental positions or behaviors or activities they did in helping to create the osteopathic profession or have some kind of impact on the history of the profession in the state of California? You mentioned Stanley Kaplan.
Dr. Alloy: Well just thinking you know relative to the development of small hospitals, 50, 75, to 100 beds were developed by DOs because of a significant need since they were restricted from admitting patients or attending patients at the allopathic hospitals in the various communities and there are a number of hospitals I’m familiar with, but one of the first ones I knew of was Rio Hondo Memorial Hospital. And I think instrumental in its development was a Dr. Stanley Kaplan; one of the other members, as I recall there were 12 or 13 people involved with it, but one of the other members was a Dr. Henry Brenner. Both of these individuals were in family practice and were very capable physicians. I might say too, it reminds me of the day’s way back. This goes back to the early 50s, when I first left the county hospital and was working with some doctors at Parkview Hospital. There were a group of physicians that met every Friday night. They invited guest lecturers and most incidences they were MDs, but they would be specialists, either cardiologists or psychologists, various specialties. They would meet at someone’s home. This was very educational as this group was pretty much limited unto itself and they were primarily all members of the fraternity Lambda Omicron Gamma, which was referred to as LOG. Their primary interest was education, their own form of continuing medical education. The fraternity was national within the osteopathic colleges. I think all of them, but I’m not positive. I know there was a Chapter in Philadelphia and there was definitely a Chapter in Los Angeles. And a couple of years ago there was an individual, a Dr. Seymour Ulansey that attempted to reunite some of the LOG members, unfortunately I was not able to attend and I also don’t know how successful he was in being able to do so. I’ve not heard of anything relative to a follow-up. He’s also another individual that would be worthwhile in speaking to relative to individuals of small hospitals. He was involved with the development of, I believe it was called the Hollywood Community Hospital.
Dr. Seffinger: There was a psychiatry program I think, wasn’t there a psychiatry residency within the DO programs?
Dr. Alloy: Yes, there was.
Dr. Seffinger: St. Monte Santo had something there too or…?
Dr. Alloy: No, I don’t know that they did. There was primarily I think it was more a preceptor ship then it was a residency program. There was one individual, I don’t know if he is still about, a Dr. Oscar Janiger. He did some very very early work on LSD.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay. Do you recall anything about the L.A. County Hospital’s transition over to USC taking control of it and a group of DOs moving down to the county hospital? Were you involved with the L.A. County Hospital at that time?
Dr. Alloy: Ah, well I was only from the standpoint of being on the attending staff and I know at the time of the merger we went through several heads of the Chairman of the Department of Surgery. I remember meeting with one of the first deans, Dean Wells. I don’t remember his first name. Dr. Robbins, I, and two others, of names I can’t recall, did meet with potential Chairpersons of the Department. One in particularly that came from Dallas, Texas, a cohort of…the cardiovascular surgeon there whose name slips my mind…Debakey. He elected to stay in Texas.
Dr. Seffinger: Were these MDs that you were interviewing?
Dr. Alloy: These were MDs, yes. Then there was one individual from Philadelphia, Charles Bailey who was a cardiac surgeon. And he was considered to be a renegade within the medical profession. He worked at Hahnoman Hospital in Philadelphia. He accepted the position here at California College of Medicine; a letter was subsequently received from Debakey specifically stating that - if this individual did get this position our residency program would be endangered, so by mutual agreement he stayed in Philadelphia. And there several others that took over the Department.
Dr. Seffinger: So, what I’m trying to understand is that the people of the County of Los Angeles put funds into building a hospital for the osteopathic profession. Then after a few years being built, the osteopathic profession decided they didn’t need that hospital anymore because they became MDs, and the hospital being strictly for DOs now became under the direction of MDs. Do you know how that occurred then with some of the DOs becoming MDs and staying on at the L.A. County Hospital? It lost its name the Osteopathic Hospital. The name was taken off it, I guess, at some point. Do you know at what point it was taken off?
Dr. Alloy: No, I don’t.
Dr. Seffinger: Did the County have to have another vote to have it designated for another purpose or who is in charge then of giving it another purpose, so that it is no longer an osteopathic hospital it is then a hospital for MDs and whoever else wants to train there, I guess.
Dr. Alloy: I think the new hospital continued as a medical institution being staffed by graduates of CCM and not until CCM moved to Irvine did the unit then end its need and became part of USC Los Angeles County General. So I think everyone sort of moved in total.
Dr. Seffinger: So it was kind of absorbed by the L.A. County Hospital system. They developed eventually the Women’s Hospital along with the Children’s Hospital. They kind of branched that. They just took it over and it became a training hospital. They’ve accepted DOs to train there, I know that. I trained there in obstetrics as well, when I was at Pacific. They accept residents and people like that. They’ve always accepted DOs at that institution even afterwards. But I just wondered if something was created by a referendum? Can it be transferred and changed by the people running the program or does it take a referendum?
Dr. Alloy: I can’t answer that.
Dr. Seffinger: I don’t know.
Dr. Alloy: I don’t know, but I know that there is fine print in all the referenda. When UCI took on CCM prior to there taking over Orange County Hospital which became UCI Medical Center, there was a referendum passed with funds permitting the building of a hospital on campus and it would roughly be in the 70s, I’m not positive of the date, the referendum was passed the hospital was never built and the reason it wasn’t is because there was fine print in the referendum that this money was to be used for the building of a hospital or to be used as the legislature saw fit, so the hospital was never built. I remember there were discussions with Willie Brown, who was Speaker of the Assembly at that time, to no avail. I think what they did then was provide some funds for taking over Orange County Hospital which was having its difficulties financially and gave it over to the UC system to…
Dr. Seffinger: Like a compromise, you think, instead of building a new hospital?
Dr. Alloy: I don’t think it was a compromise, I think they just gave it to them.
Dr. Seffinger: I see.
Dr. Alloy: You know a compromise you both agree to something.
Dr. Seffinger: Right.
Dr. Alloy: This is what you got period.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay is there anything you want…?
Dr. Alloy: Stan Van Den Noort could tell you a lot more about that because I think he was involved in trying to get the funds.
Dr. Seffinger: Okay, I’ll be ringing him shortly. Is there anything else you would like to add and certainly it doesn’t have to be now, but throughout the next year or so, while we are on the project you can always add things, if you want to submit documents, or pick out some, or read some or tell us about some that’s always available.
Dr. Alloy: Okay.